Low Flying EV.
I have to admit I cringe every time an article about a 3 wheeled electric vehicle appears in the media. I immediately imagine the vehicle being ruthlessly savaged by automotive “journalists” as; too slow, too unstable, too small, too dangerous etc, etc.
To me, these sorts of vehicles hinder the positive promotion of EVs to the masses. It’s understandable why some EV designers are attracted to the three wheel option, their light weight greatly extends the range of a battery pack and they often circumvent difficult legislation not applied to “motorcycles”.
So when the Green Car Congress posted this article about the VentureOne my pulse rate slowed as usual but the comment count was more than I expected so I decided to see what all the fuss was about…
Well it turns out that to drive this vehicle is to feel like you are flying it because it leans into the corners. It gets some huge wraps (”…the most fun you’ll ever have!”) from the hugely popular folks at Top Gear (admittedly they were driving the petrol version). This is something to get excited about because EVs need to be seen as fun to gain even a small foothold in the mass market. Take a look at the Top Gear videos at the Venture Vehicles Website and see how much they enjoyed the low level flying!
February 19th, 2007 at 9:22 am
I’ve ordered one.
February 19th, 2007 at 7:48 pm
You might’ve ordered two.
February 20th, 2007 at 9:04 pm
Hi EE
I think electric vehicles need to be ordinary commuter vehicles.
Something mum can get in and drive the kids to school,go shopping etc,
come home the plug it in.
It needs to be virtualy the same to drive as any other fuel powered car,just without the noise.
We are going to build one or many soon.
Will keep you informed.
Regards and thanks for your web site.
K H.
February 21st, 2007 at 8:15 pm
Hi Kel,
Couldn’t agree more. However marketing is ALL about perception and EV’s need to shake their slow and nerdy image or the Mum’s aren’t going to buy. The VentureOne can only help dispel these myths.
Definitely keep us informed of your venture, sounds very exciting!
Good luck.
March 3rd, 2007 at 10:20 pm
Hi Shaun,
Two things happened today that got me thinking. First, my daughter announced it was only 300 days till she gets her L plates.
Second, we drove to Katoomba. All the way back, I followed a white Echo, and I started thinking about your car.
The idea of putting another CO2 fumer on the planet is painful.
I had $20K set aside for solar panels. The figures looked good, till my electric company said NO to a time of use meter. Our west facing roof would have paid for the panels in 5 years, but only WITH a time of use meter paying 20c a kWHr between 2pm and 6pm.
So now I’m thinking a better investment might be an electric echo. About 4 years ago, I did a similar thing. I built a timber boat following the journal of a guy who had built one, and just like you, documented the entire experience.
I haven’t welded or worked with metal for 15 years, but at least I have done it. (6 months in an apprentice training centre, doing a Fitter and Turner certificate - a precursor to BHP’s Mech Eng degree training). I’m psyching myself up now - I believe I can do this.
The wife has given the nod. We are prepared to spend extra on the batteries if we can get extra miles and durability. She works about 8 hilly km away. A couple of nights a week, she then drives to basketball, a less hilly 10km. If we can get the range to cover both, that would make more expensive batteries worth it. If not, there’s always the Commodore as back up.
It’s the political statement more than anything that excites me. I wonder if plates “NO CO2″ are obtainable. If not, some kind of sign “No exhaust. No fuel tank.” might be the go.
What would you do differently if you were starting again? Have you heard of anyone getting their hands on Lithium? (I had a sudden vision of pulling a few hundred DeWalt 36 volt packs apart).
Cheers,
Carl
March 4th, 2007 at 10:21 am
Hi Carl,
>Two things happened today that got me thinking. First, my daughter announced it was only 300 days till she gets her L plates.
That’s Scary.
Fortunately my son is closer to 3,000 days away from his!
>Second, we drove to Katoomba. All the way back, I followed a white Echo, and I started thinking about your car.
Mmm. That’s what I do when I’m driving in the country, think about my E-E.
>The idea of putting another CO2 fumer on the planet is painful.
Yes it is.
>I had $20K set aside for solar panels. The figures looked good, till my electric company said NO to a time of use meter. Our west facing roof would have paid for the panels in 5 years, but only WITH a time of use meter paying 20c a kWHr between 2pm and 6pm.
I hadn’t considered using the price of peak demand before, these guys aren’t gonna give that up are they?! Question is, are they all the same? It might be worth contacting a few other retailers (even interstate), things are changing rapidly in this area and competition is ramping up.
>So now I’m thinking a better investment might be an electric echo. About 4 years ago, I did a similar thing. I built a timber boat following the journal of a guy who had built one, and just like you, documented the entire experience.
You know what your in for then!
>I haven’t welded or worked with metal for 15 years, but at least I have done it. (6 months in an apprentice training centre, doing a Fitter and Turner certificate - a precursor to BHP’s Mech Eng degree training). I’m psyching myself up now - I believe I can do this.
I know you can do this. The most technically difficult part is adapting the motor to the gearbox and I didn’t do the machining myself, all you need is the skill to draw something up and communicate the requirements to a capable machinist. The rest (battery racks) is basic mild steel cutting and welding.
>The wife has given the nod. We are prepared to spend extra on the batteries if we can get extra miles and durability. She works about 8 hilly km away. A couple of nights a week, she then drives to basketball, a less hilly 10km. If we can get the range to cover both, that would make more expensive batteries worth it. If not, there’s always the Commodore as back up.
The distances sound fine but the hills may be a problem, because they have the potential to murder a small (Electric-Echo) battery pack, it really does depend on how long and how steep.
>It’s the political statement more than anything that excites me. I wonder if plates “NO CO2″ are obtainable. If not, some kind of sign “No exhaust. No fuel tank.” might be the go.
Here in Queensland the “NO C02″ was bought by Alex, who’s made some earlier comments on this Blog. He has it on their newly purchased Prius with the intention of going plug-in when available.
>What would you do differently if you were starting again? Have you heard of anyone getting their hands on Lithium? (I had a sudden vision of pulling a few hundred DeWalt 36 volt packs apart).
I was seriously thinking about doing this to some DeWalts only yesterday!
>Cheers,
>Carl
Carl, I really don’t know what I would do the second time around, here’s is my current state of mind;
My reason for converting an Echo were all about making a statement, a car that is popular because of how it looks and is well built and practical. The importance of this cannot be overestimated, I’m sure it makes a huge difference. However it is limited by how much lead it can carry, of course Lithium changes this though.
It would be very tempting to convert a Proton Jumbuck ute instead. Simple because of the battery weight/GVM problem and building a battery rack would be so simple. However a ute wouldn’t make the same statement.
Lithium batteries are getting closer and closer to being feasible but who’s going to make the first jump!
Another option but a much more expensive one is to buy a post-2004 Prius and wait until a plug-in kit becomes available. This option provides the importance of supporting the mainstream industry and a very practical vehicle.
I still have concerns about the durability of my current battery pack, it is still unproven. I think the only proven durable packs are either very expensive lightweight Optima yellow top 12V batteries or very heavy 200Ah 6V Trojan batteries. You need a lot of money for the first option or a small ute for the second option.
To summarise;
1. Convert an Echo and hope lead battery pack holds out until Lithium is viable (this can’t be far away, I’m guessing two years max).
2. Convert a Jumbuck and know that the Trojans will get you 20,000km.
3. Buy a second hand >2004 Prius and hope that a plug-in kit will become available soon, the only risk is that Toyota will build a production plug-in first.
Sorry if I’ve made the decision harder for you!
March 8th, 2007 at 9:16 am
Yeah, sorry Carl, i’m afraid I took the “NO CO2″ plate already. I actually was intending to get “LO CO2″, but it was already taken, so I optimisically selected “NO CO2″ with the aim of going plugin with the Prius.
Well, I haven’t made a lot of progress at the moment on this. I’m monitoring the state of play with Plug-in Hybrid (PHEV) conversions and have even contacted Hymotion (and Energy CS in the States) but have received no responses from those guys.
At the moment Hymotion (http://www.hymotion.com/) is the best mob to go with for Prius conversions as (lucky for us) they’re based in Canada which means they make 240V plug-in systems. Most of the others make plug-in systems exclusively for the 110V U.S market.
Problem is trying to get a response of these people. At the moment Hymotion are only making packs for US governments fleets, with the promise of selling to individual consumers once testing is complete (meant to be some time this year according to their website). Still they will only likely sell to folks in California in the first instance, then some other US states with tough emissions laws, then some time next century (joking) maybe the rest of us chumps will get a look in.
The other day the Green Car Congress website report on Hymotions latest contract with a US govt department(http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007/03/aqmd_contracts_.html)
“…The Board of the South Coast Air Quality Management District (AQMD) in California just approved a $2.6-million contract for the conversion of 20 Ford Escape Hybrids and 10 Toyota Priuses to plug-ins. AQMD selected Quantum Technologies for the conversion of the Escape hybrids, and Hymotion for the Prius conversions….”
There’s an interesting table at the link above whereby the other plugin packs were tested and rated. Hymotion’s system is still the most reliable for the Prius, however, like Shaun they’re still testing the performance and reliability of their lithium cell packs - obviously there are issues to be sorted out. Once certified I believe they intend to sell the units for $9500USD installed. The pack will enable the Prius to drive in EV mode for the first 50km.
I also noticed on Catalyst the other night (http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/s1860309.htm) on the Beyond Petrol story, they were interviewing Engineering Professor, Andy Frank, who’s developed a plugin that can go 100km in EV mode.
So things are developing, but it still hard to get these things off the shelf. I suspect Toyota will produce a plugin Prius in two model generations ie., 2008/09.
Cheers
Alex
March 8th, 2007 at 6:46 pm
It seems that the world over, the EV industry is stalled for want of somebody to make a decent large format Lithium battery, put a price on it, and start delivering. The story of the NiMH RAV4 makes my blood boil.
From what Shaun says, I’m better off waiting for a bit to see what transpires. Being a trailblazer is cool, but a failed EV is worse than no EV - dispiriting.
The battery scene appears to be hotting up. Surely within 12 months somebody will start selling. How hard can it be for A123 to turn their DeWalt technology into an EV battery. The question is, will they make them generally available, or sell exclusively to GM.
Altairnano are tied up with Phoenix Motorcars, but don’t seem to know much about mass production.
The Chinese are wonderful copy-cats. Hopefully, they will pull apart the Dewalt packs, see what’s in them and reverse engineer an EV pack, cheap and en masse. Fingers crossed.
March 9th, 2007 at 9:05 pm
Hi Guys,
The Hymotion slow-motion is very frustrating. Give them a phone call Alex and tell them you work for the Government!
I doubt if us little people will ever be able to buy a high quality, large capacity “EV” batteries off the shelf. There will only ever be a tiny retail market for them. I honestly believe that the only way I’m going to get good Lithium into my car is to buy a stack of the cells like they use in the DeWalt packs. This might not be too far away, as you point out Carl, the battery scene really does seem to be hotting up.
March 12th, 2007 at 2:58 pm
Shaun / Carl
Believe it or not, I actually did ‘tell’ Hymotion that the Queensland Government fleet provider (Q-Fleet) does have a substantial program of turning over Toyota Prius vehicles in their fleet and would be an ideal candidate to approach if they wished to start trials in Australia. Nothing. They’ve never responded to my emails.
Well it’s interesting that your both talking about hacking DeWalt packs as an “off-the-shelf” solution, cos those guys over at Tesla (http://www.teslamotors.com/) - you know the ones with the EV that goes 0-60 in under 4 seconds and has a range of 350km - well there using bog-standard mobile phone / laptop lithium batteries.
Mind you, they’re are 7000 cells in their pack and the proprietary stuff is not so much around the batteries themselves (which are pretty “standard” cells — 7.2 volt 18650 form-factor), but the cooling and other management software to stop “thermal runaway event” - otherwise known as catching fire!!!
So get yourself down to your nearest second hand computer store and start buying up laptop batteries boys
Alex
August 15th, 2008 at 3:31 pm
What is the range of your Electric Echo? Your website is devoid of this information. You claim not to have instrumentation, but all you need to do is drive it until it runs down.
Well? What’s the furthest you’ve gone on a charge?
August 15th, 2008 at 9:50 pm
If you looked a bit harder you’d know my range is about 25km here in hilly Brisbane, or to put it in another metric - I’m guessing about half your IQ.
August 25th, 2008 at 10:44 am
Off-topic I know, but I just spotted Alex’s car this morning while I was driving a 172. Thanx for letting me in.
I hope you get the plug-in solution soon.
Actually, one of my workmates said a couple of months back that they trialled electric buses here years ago, but gave up on it because the design didn’t have the torque required to get out of the Queen St Bus Station!